Comments on: Flag-folding Recitations Now Banned At National Cemeteries http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/ Sun, 08 Nov 2009 13:25:44 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: Flopping Aces » Blog Archive » HBO Taking Chance http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-146615 Flopping Aces » Blog Archive » HBO Taking Chance Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:20:34 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-146615 [...] I remembered that this suppression by secular fanatics already took place. Rob posted this from late October of 2007: Through thousands of military burials, Memorial Honor Detail volunteers [...] [...] I remembered that this suppression by secular fanatics already took place. Rob posted this from late October of 2007: Through thousands of military burials, Memorial Honor Detail volunteers [...]

]]> By: Bill S http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-131039 Bill S Thu, 13 Nov 2008 14:02:28 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-131039 I have to agree with Lurkin in that I never heard of this 13 step reading. I joined the military in 1968 and until a few days ago had never seen or heard of it and have yet to find out where it originated. As an ordained minister, I have buried many vets and again no Legion or VFW post ever mentioned it and no family ever requested it and so far I still can't find out where it originated. One of the most difficult parts of the burial service is the presentation of the flag to the family, especially to the parents of a 18 or 19 year old son or daughter who was KIA. Somehow, giving them a flag isn't enough to prove how grateful the nation is for their loss. It always seemed to me in the military and at a military funeral that the most important thing is having the brothers in arms of the deceased present for the family, because they were the people that he or she fought and lived or died with in service to our country. They give great comfort to the family on behalf of our nation. Finally, I am very concerned when a prayer is written that covers only Christians and Jews. I don't think I need to say to any vet that many people share and have shared the foxholes of our yesterdays, today's and tomorrows. They have shed their blood for our nation and I don't remember at any time that I ever asked, "What religion are you American?' Never did. We all wore the same uniform. I didn't need to ask beyond their willingness to serve in that uniform. It said it all. -- B I have to agree with Lurkin in that I never heard of this 13 step reading. I joined the military in 1968 and until a few days ago had never seen or heard of it and have yet to find out where it originated. As an ordained minister, I have buried many vets and again no Legion or VFW post ever mentioned it and no family ever requested it and so far I still can’t find out where it originated.

One of the most difficult parts of the burial service is the presentation of the flag to the family, especially to the parents of a 18 or 19 year old son or daughter who was KIA. Somehow, giving them a flag isn’t enough to prove how grateful the nation is for their loss. It always seemed to me in the military and at a military funeral that the most important thing is having the brothers in arms of the deceased present for the family, because they were the people that he or she fought and lived or died with in service to our country. They give great comfort to the family on behalf of our nation.

Finally, I am very concerned when a prayer is written that covers only Christians and Jews. I don’t think I need to say to any vet that many people share and have shared the foxholes of our yesterdays, today’s and tomorrows. They have shed their blood for our nation and I don’t remember at any time that I ever asked, “What religion are you American?’ Never did. We all wore the same uniform. I didn’t need to ask beyond their willingness to serve in that uniform. It said it all.

– B

]]> By: Lurkin_no_mo http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-7892 Lurkin_no_mo Thu, 01 Nov 2007 18:32:44 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-7892 Having done these ceremonies many times while in the active duty army, all we ever did was fold the flag and present it to the survivors widow/family member with the words "Please accept this flag on behalf of a greatful nation". Never even heard about the folds thingy until now, and I've been in the military since 1975. I'm assuming it's something realatively new and may even have been created by the MHD volunteers. From my experience, the family just wants to go through the grieving period, ie finish the ceremony at the funeral and go where everyone can sit down and support each other. Reciting these 13 not part of the U.S. Flag Code elements just increases the time the family has to sit at the graveyard before they get on with their grieving and rememberance. Having done these ceremonies many times while in the active duty army, all we ever did was fold the flag and present it to the survivors widow/family member with the words “Please accept this flag on behalf of a greatful nation”. Never even heard about the folds thingy until now, and I’ve been in the military since 1975.
I’m assuming it’s something realatively new and may even have been created by the MHD volunteers.
From my experience, the family just wants to go through the grieving period, ie finish the ceremony at the funeral and go where everyone can sit down and support each other. Reciting these 13 not part of the U.S. Flag Code elements just increases the time the family has to sit at the graveyard before they get on with their grieving and rememberance.

]]> By: Russell Young http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-7891 Russell Young Wed, 31 Oct 2007 17:36:53 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-7891 Religion,God, and et.al. is beside the point. When was it decided that we could only espouse government approved beliefs when on federal property. One might further ask when we evolved into thin skinned, whining, spineless creatures so far removed from the men who shed blood to ensure the continuance of this sorry citizenry?? One lousy opinion is to be aqllowed to decide the the limits of honor accorded to all of us? It is time for a radical change. Religion,God, and et.al. is beside the point. When was it decided that we could only espouse government approved beliefs when on federal property.

One might further ask when we evolved into thin skinned, whining, spineless creatures so far removed from the men who shed blood to ensure the continuance of this sorry citizenry??

One lousy opinion is to be aqllowed to decide the the limits of honor accorded to all of us?

It is time for a radical change.

]]> By: Random U http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-7890 Random U Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:36:14 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-7890 I fully understand your anger. I hope the VA changes the rules to allow the deceased to be buried with or decline whatever tradition they desire long before you pass away. As a service person you an all others deserve that honour. Random I fully understand your anger. I hope the VA changes the rules to allow the deceased to be buried with or decline whatever tradition they desire long before you pass away. As a service person you an all others deserve that honour.

Random

]]> By: Steve Johnson http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-7889 Steve Johnson Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:20:07 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-7889 Random, After doing some more homework on this and reading it more closely, you are correct. I rushed to judgement and for that must apologize. Some sources list a Mike Wells as the complaintant, but noone has been able to verify it. Thank you for pointing out that I was making assumptions. That said, I still believe this is a case of political correctness being rammed down everyone's throats. What happened to majority rule? When a single person can bring down one of the most cherished traditions those of us in uniform have, a serious problem exists. For the VA to take such a drastic step as forbidding their workers from reciting this - regardless of the wishes of the family - is even more concerning. When they bury me, I promise you, the flag-folding ceremony will be recited, in accordance with my wishes. Again, I apologize for the hasty judgement call, I was more incensed than I realized, given how closely to home this issue strikes for me. Random,
After doing some more homework on this and reading it more closely, you are correct. I rushed to judgement and for that must apologize. Some sources list a Mike Wells as the complaintant, but noone has been able to verify it. Thank you for pointing out that I was making assumptions.

That said, I still believe this is a case of political correctness being rammed down everyone’s throats. What happened to majority rule? When a single person can bring down one of the most cherished traditions those of us in uniform have, a serious problem exists. For the VA to take such a drastic step as forbidding their workers from reciting this – regardless of the wishes of the family – is even more concerning.

When they bury me, I promise you, the flag-folding ceremony will be recited, in accordance with my wishes.

Again, I apologize for the hasty judgement call, I was more incensed than I realized, given how closely to home this issue strikes for me.

]]> By: Sister Toldjah http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-7893 Sister Toldjah Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:54:47 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-7893 <strong>Fighting back on the flag-folding flap</strong> See if you can say that three times fast. Members of the House are reacting swiftly to the recent news about the Dept. of Veterans Affairs decision halting flag-folding recitatations at military funerals at any national cemetary - because of one compla... Fighting back on the flag-folding flap

See if you can say that three times fast.
Members of the House are reacting swiftly to the recent news about the Dept. of Veterans Affairs decision halting flag-folding recitatations at military funerals at any national cemetary – because of one compla…

]]> By: Random U http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-7888 Random U Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:17:37 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-7888 Steve Johnson "We both know that if a Jewish or Muslim ceremony was removed due to perceved political correctness, an outrage would follow - and rightly so." Actually according to the article is was because of the Jewish portion it was removed. "A single complaint lodged against the words for the 11th fold recently prompted the National Cemetery Administration to ban the entire recital at all 125 national cemeteries." 11th fold = "11. In the eyes of a Hebrew citizen, represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon, and glorifies, in their eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." It is just possible that the person who complained WAS a Chrstian who dislikes the Jewish faith. They may have complained about that one line asking it be removed. Random Steve Johnson

“We both know that if a Jewish or Muslim ceremony was removed due to perceved political correctness, an outrage would follow – and rightly so.”

Actually according to the article is was because of the Jewish portion it was removed.

“A single complaint lodged against the words for the 11th fold recently prompted the National Cemetery Administration to ban the entire recital at all 125 national cemeteries.”

11th fold =

“11. In the eyes of a Hebrew citizen, represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon, and glorifies, in their eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.”

It is just possible that the person who complained WAS a Chrstian who dislikes the Jewish faith. They may have complained about that one line asking it be removed.

Random

]]> By: Random U http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-7887 Random U Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:09:47 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-7887 Where does it say that the individual who was buried in the complaint was Christian. I seem to have missed it. All I see in the article is... "A spokesman in Washington said the complaint originated from someone who witnessed the ceremony at Riverside National but would provide no other details and declined to release the directive banning the flag-folding recital, saying it was "an internal working document not meant for public distribution." If this statement is true then the person may well have been Native American Spiritual, Wiccan, Bhudist, Sikh, Hindu or any of 100 other religions. If I missed the line please point it out. Random Where does it say that the individual who was buried in the complaint was Christian. I seem to have missed it. All I see in the article is…

“A spokesman in Washington said the complaint originated from someone who witnessed the ceremony at Riverside National but would provide no other details and declined to release the directive banning the flag-folding recital, saying it was “an internal working document not meant for public distribution.”

If this statement is true then the person may well have been Native American Spiritual, Wiccan, Bhudist, Sikh, Hindu or any of 100 other religions.

If I missed the line please point it out.

Random

]]> By: Steve Johnson http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-7886 Steve Johnson Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:44:36 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-7886 The member being buried was Christian. The offended party was simply present. When we force others to change their last wishes because of the religion of possible attendees, we truly have lost something. If I, as a Christian, attended the funeral of a Muslim member of my squadron, I would expect to hear Islamic rites and traditions. Likewise, no one should be shocked or shaken that a Christian burial included Christian rites. The member being buried was Christian. The offended party was simply present. When we force others to change their last wishes because of the religion of possible attendees, we truly have lost something. If I, as a Christian, attended the funeral of a Muslim member of my squadron, I would expect to hear Islamic rites and traditions. Likewise, no one should be shocked or shaken that a Christian burial included Christian rites.

]]> By: Random U http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-7885 Random U Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:39:33 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-7885 While there is a definite double standard against Christianity in some areas of government (most notable the NEA) I can see why this was removed. Though it does not say, what if the peron who complained was the wife of a Native American (Spirit Religion), Wiccan, Bhudist, Shinto or Hindu who died for this country. In that case it could be very offencive to have a Christian message delivered at the funeral of the fallen. Keep in mind that some of these groups, with some justification, feel that they have been oppressed by those of Christian faith either within this country or abroad. How would you feel if your loved one was being buried and a recitation was done acknowledging another religion AND NOT YOURS. Substitute Allah and Muslim and watch how many Christians would demand that this be stopped. The simmple solution is to have a recital based upon each religion and to use the apropriate one for the deceased religion. Random While there is a definite double standard against Christianity in some areas of government (most notable the NEA) I can see why this was removed.

Though it does not say, what if the peron who complained was the wife of a Native American (Spirit Religion), Wiccan, Bhudist, Shinto or Hindu who died for this country. In that case it could be very offencive to have a Christian message delivered at the funeral of the fallen. Keep in mind that some of these groups, with some justification, feel that they have been oppressed by those of Christian faith either within this country or abroad.

How would you feel if your loved one was being buried and a recitation was done acknowledging another religion AND NOT YOURS. Substitute Allah and Muslim and watch how many Christians would demand that this be stopped.

The simmple solution is to have a recital based upon each religion and to use the apropriate one for the deceased religion.

Random

]]> By: Steve Johnson http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-b/#comment-7884 Steve Johnson Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:30:39 +0000 http://www.floppingaces.net/2007/10/30/flag-folding-recitations-now-banned-at-national-cemeteries/#comment-7884 I sent the following to the VA: I am appalled by the decision by the VA to deny the right of Christian veterans to have the flag-folding ceremony read over their casket. We both know that if a Jewish or Muslim ceremony was removed due to perceved political correctness, an outrage would follow - and rightly so. In death, we are entitled to any type of service we choose. Our families have the right to talk to God - regardless of what name they call him - without fear of governmental intervention. Having served honorably in the Armed Forces of the United States, I will specifically include the flag-folding recitation in my funeral arrangements. How dare the VA deny veterans and their families the right to say goodbye in their own way? v/r Stephen Johnson AT2 (AW/NAC) USN I sent the following to the VA:

I am appalled by the decision by the VA to deny the right of Christian veterans to have the flag-folding ceremony read over their casket. We both know that if a Jewish or Muslim ceremony was removed due to perceved political correctness, an outrage would follow – and rightly so. In death, we are entitled to any type of service we choose. Our families have the right to talk to God – regardless of what name they call him – without fear of governmental intervention. Having served honorably in the Armed Forces of the United States, I will specifically include the flag-folding recitation in my funeral arrangements.

How dare the VA deny veterans and their families the right to say goodbye in their own way?

v/r
Stephen Johnson
AT2 (AW/NAC)
USN

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