Global Warming Scaremongering Is Back

“A panel of international scientists predicted Friday that global warming will continue for centuries no matter how much people control pollution, in a bleak report that blamed humans for killer heat waves, devastating droughts and stronger storms.”

Well if its pointless to even try and cut back on alleged greenhouse gasses, then lets go out to buy an Escalade and crank it up. And lets bring back Freon while we are it. Don’t these ‘scientists’ even realize how illogical their arugments are? Oh right, they are funding leeches masquerading as scientists, logic is not required just believable fear.

Any way you spin it, the Friends of Science is a well known think tank and PR institution that, despite its claims, has had demonstrable ties in the past to partisan political agendas.

Oh my, that is rich. And the global warming conglomerate has no questionable political ties?

Believe me, I’ve looked at the research and its all biased. I’m still waiting for that global ice age from 30 years back and now you want me to put on my bathing suit in preparation for coming Armageddon.

You moonbats are always good for a chuckle.

Welcome back Reasic. Check out my latest post for the real facts. Those facts being that this new report actually kills any reason for any panic about global warming. The report downgrades temperature rising numbers but does say humans are most likely the cause of rising temperatures from 1940 to the present but doesn’t explain how the temperature FELL from 1940 to 1975 even tho carbon dioxide levels rose every single year from 1940 to the present. The temperature of the oceans was also found to have been dramatically overstated in the 2001 report.

Ambiguities in the report, and considerable discrepancies between it and its predecessor, show that there is no scientific consensus on many points for which consensus is often claimed.

Overall, however, the report is drafted so as to allow environmental extremists to cite its high-end projections as evidence of the need for urgent action.

The ambiguities, together with the conspicuous failure to apologize for the discredited “hockeystick” graph, fully justify the decision of fast-developing third-world countries such as China and India not to yield to pressure from the EU at the recent Nairobi climate summit to cut their greenhouse-gas emissions.

To claim that the debate is over, that global warming exists , is not only intellectually dishonest but foolish.

It is not cut and dried but the scaremongering by the leftist hippies, celebrities, and other industries is in full throttle.

So excuse me for laughing and mocking those who believe this is good science….it’s not even close.

I’ll read over your recent post in a bit. I’ll go ahead and address some of your comments, though.

As far as the IPCC report not addressing changes in the climate from the 40’s to the 70’s, why would they do that? The purpose of the report is to explain where we are right now in terms of climate change. If you want an explanation of the cooling blip during those years, you can look up the article I linked to in my first comment. They make three interesting points:

1. The cooling trend from the 40’s to the 70’s now looks more like a slight interruption of an upward trend (e.g. here). It turns out that the northern hemisphere cooling was larger than the southern (consistent with the nowadays accepted interpreation that the cooling was largely caused by sulphate aerosols); at first, only NH records were available.

2. Sulphate aerosols have not increased as much as once feared (partly through efforts to combat acid rain); CO2 forcing is greater. Indeed IPCC projections of future temperature inceases went up from the 1995 SAR to the 2001 TAR because estimates of future sulphate aerosol levels were lowered (SPM).

3. Interpretations of future changes in the Earth’s orbit have changed somewhat. It now seems likely (Loutre and Berger, Climatic Change, 46: (1-2) 61-90 2000) that the current interglacial, based purely on natural forcing, would last for an exceptionally long time: perhaps 50,000 years.

There are two types of forcings, which can change the climate’s direction (warmer or cooler): negative (cooling), which is caused by aerosols, and positive (warming), which is caused mainly by CO2. During that time period, sulphate aerosols had increased dramatically. This has since waned and now CO2 has emerged as the dominant catalyst. For an explanation of how the two forcings effect climate change, you may want to do an internet search.

Next, I’d just like to say that I’ve pretty confused about your point. You tell me that, while the new report downgrades “temperature rising numbers”, it does show a warming trend and that humans are the cause. Then, you tell me that the debate is not over and that thinking that warming exists is foolish. How do you go from “warming exists” to “it’s foolish to think that warming exists”?

As I said, there are alarmists out there, and I agree that some of that stuff is nuts. However, just because something is happening slowly doesn’t mean we shouldn’t do anything about it. If it’s happening and we’re the cause, shouldn’t we do something?

As to your next comment, the majority of those papers are outdated. This is a science that is rapidly improving, thanks to additional data and more reliable models. And even if I include the older pieces, you have a total of seven? Maybe eight? How does that compare to the hundreds that agree with the fact the the planet is warming?

Wow, Curt. I just read over the research articles you’ve provided, and I have to conclude that you haven’t. So, I did your research for you, and provided it below.

The majority of what you’ve provided seems to deal with total solar irradiance, or TSI. So, you’ve linked a bunch of articles that analyze how solar activity effects our climate. First of all, this is not news. Of course it does! The sun warms the planet. It’s the increased concentrations of greenhouse gases that create the positive radiative forcings that trap heat in, thus making the planet warmer. None of this debunks the fact that the planet is warming or that it is mostly due to human activity.

For example, take your article from Solanki, et. al., from 2005. Here’s a direct quote from the abstract:

Although the rarity of the current episode of high average sunspot numbers may indicate that the Sun has contributed to the unusual climate change during the twentieth century, we point out that solar variability is unlikely to have been the dominant cause of the strong warming during the past three decades.

At the end of that sentence, they reference a previous work which states:

…since roughly 1970 the solar influence on climate (through the channels considered here) cannot have been dominant. In particular, the Sun cannot have contributed more than 30% to the steep temperature increase that has taken place since then…

Also, from the other Solanki work that you referenced:

Therefore, unless the influence of solar variability on Earth is very strongly non-linear, at least this most recent temperature increase reflects the influence
of man-made greenhouse gases or non-solar sources of natural variability.

These guys are saying that, while the sun has an effect on our climate, it’s not the dominant factor, especially not in the current warming trends we are seeing.

I couldn’t find an online copy of the Ramanathan article. So, I found some other works by those authors. Ramanathan, for instance, gave a speech in 2005 at the University of California, San Diego, which he titled simply “Global Warming“. Here’s an interesting quote from that speech:

The delay of the warming by decades to centuries by the flywheel effect of ocean mixing, when combined with the century or more lifetime of co2 (and molecules of other greenhouse gases) in the atmosphere, presents policymakers with the central moral dilemma of the global-warming problem. Every decade we delay in taking action, we are committing the planet to additional warming that future generations have to deal with.

Here’s the abtract to another work by Cicerone:

Human activity this century has increased the concentrations of atmospheric trace gases, which in turn has elevated global surface temperatures by blocking the escape of thermal infrared radiation. Natural climate variations are masking this temperature increase, but further additions of trace gases during the next 65 years could double or even quadruple the present effects, causing the global average temperature to rise by at least 1 °C and possibly by more than 5 °C. If the rise continues into the twenty-second century, the global average temperature may reach higher values than have occurred in the past 10 million years.

Okay, now let’s move on to the first one you referenced with a ton of authors. Here’s the first sentence of its abstract:

Global warming, caused by an increase in the concentrations of greenhouse gases, is the direct result of greenhouse gas-induced radiative forcing.

The purpose of this article was not to question whether the planet is warming or what its cause was. The purpose was to improve on the models’ use of CO2 radiative forcing. Naturally, the models were not near as reliable as they are now, as the article was written 14 years ago.

Next, let’s look at the one by Lean, et. al. Here’s part of the abstract:

The correlation of reconstructed solar irradiance and Northern Hemisphere (NH) surface temperature is 0.86 in the pre-industrial period from 1610 to 1800, implying a predominant solar influence. Extending this correlation to the present suggests that solar forcing may have contributed about half of the observed 0.55°C surface warming since 1860 and one third of the warming since 1970.

So, they’re saying that solar forcing is responsible for about a third of the warming since 1970. This seems to fall in line with Solanki’s description of the solar influence on climate change, which was that it “could not have been a dominant factor.”

I’ve got two more. Let’s look at the Willson and Mordvinov piece. You look that over and explain to me how it debunks the IPCC report on global warming. I read it over, and I can’t follow it. If you can read and understand this one, and then break it down for me into layman’s terms, I’ll give it to you. then, you’d have one.

Finally, I’ve come to the article by Khandekar. This was the only reference you provided that actually expressed a dissenting view. So, I’ll give it to you.

Now it seems that you have only provided one dissenting article. Any more that you would like to provide? You might want to actually look at them next time.

Curt, I posted both of those before you approved them and provided your own comments. I see now that Mike provided the articles. I still show that only one of Mike’s references was a dissent.

Reasic: I have the links to those citations in case you want to re-read them. I would hate to think you were cherry picking.

And now that we have your attention may I also commend to you AGAIN the 40 page Monckton summary where he places them all into context:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/11/05/warm-refs.pdf

Oh, and I admit that in my haste I overlooked a few more sources:
–Singer and Avery have gone into exquisite detail on the subject. Here’s a discussion they participated in at the Hudson Institute last November:

http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/UnstoppableGlobalWarming.pdf

–And you may be familiar with the groundbreaking work of:

HOYT, D.V., and Schatten, K.H. 1993. A discussion of plausible solar irradiance variations, 1700-
1992. Journal of Geophysical Research, 98: 18895-18906.

Which is also in book form from the Oxford University Press:

http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/AtmosphericScience/Climatology/?ci=019509414X&view=usa

After reading your earlier comment where you stated several points where we might have grounds for agreement I am disheartened that you should now try and use the information presented in such a transparently biased fashion.

If you’re more interested in playing little games with the information on both sides, that’s fine. But if that’s your goal, let’s not try and fool anyone into thinking you are serious about the issue.

Regardless of your motives, the point remains that the causes and effects of whatever warming or cooling which is, or is not, occurring is not well understood.

Even the UN Climate panel admits that.

What I find most interesting are those scientists who would say we do not need to fund additional research into solar variability because, they insist, we already know the answer.

Again, with the amount of money required to comply with the demands of the international environmental community we could solve practically every other problem the world has. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to be more sure that what the so-called “environmentalists” are saying has scientific validity before we waste $500 TRILLION?

And we don’t even know whether if we all stopped driving cars tommorrow, stopped all coal, oil or gas burning industrial processes (but only in the West and P.S. you cannot use nuclear power to replace carbon) that warming would be even slightly affected.

And while I am on the subject, I found an analysis by Christopher Horner describing the recent “COP-12/MOP-2″ meeting in Nairobi (how’s that for lingo reasic), or in cab driver language, those backing the Kyoto protocol.

Horner points out with evident interest the fact that while the Europeans are posturing over greenhouse gas emissions and pointing the finger at the United States:

Over the most recent five years for which we have data (2000‐2004) Europeʹs GHG emissions have increased twice as fast as those of the U.S. Their CO2 emissions are increasing with an even greater disparity. Most starkly, the average EU country’s carbon dioxide emissions have increased over this period approximately five times as fast as those of the U.S.
…

Inarguably, Europe is increasing its CO2 emissions at a rate far faster than the U.S., despite the obscuring effects of a collectivized emission figure and the arbitrary and uniquely favorable 1990 baseline.

It’s pretty difficult to take manmade global warming seriously when we already know that the first UN climate change report used a hockey stick graph meant to show warming,but excluded both the medieval warm period and the maunder minimum. (graph here with more accurate comparison).

And now of course we learn that the current UN report has had to trim it’s initial batch of alarmist predictions

Then the coup de grace: those same self righteous Europeans continue to burn carbon at a faster rate than the U.S.

Until the lies, the phony forecasts, the weak and politically motivated science behind the flawed insistence on MANMADE global warming is stripped away, the subject will continue to be what it has always been: a leftist concocted political tool.

Meanwhile, we have enough recoverable oil in our own country ( see USGS National Oil and Gas Assesment) to supply nearly all of our current carbon needs without importing from any other country other than Canada.

The money raised on royalties and taxes (currently being handed over to folks in the Middle East) would be more than enough to fund a Manhattan style project to develop and implement a nationwide energy initiative that does not rely on carbon.

But, like nuclear, or even windmill power, the left opposes the ecologically safe exploitation of these resources.

Is their real motive, as some suggest, to limit or control economic growth?

If this is not the case, then why do they insist that our only option is to follow their alarmist, historically inaccurate forecasts or we are all doomed? What’s their motive?

Even if misquided belief in some CO2 bogeyman is what motivates them, why do they oppose all the alternate routes to reach the same end?

Mike, could you clarify this for me?

Reasic: I have the links to those citations in case you want to re-read them. I would hate to think you were cherry picking.

I’m confused. I provided the links to most of the papers in my comment. Why would I need yours? Did you want to address any of my points about how most of them were not dissenting?

Once again, you quote Monckton, when I am looking for peer-reviewed research. Monckton is a journalist, not a climate scientist. And he advances myth such as the one that the Chinese sailed around the Arctic in 1421. This has been discredited by historians. Unless you believe Menzies’ other claims that the Chinese discovered America first, for instance, you might also want to think twice about that one.

Your reference for Singer and Avery is not a peer-reviewed research paper.

I looked over the Hoyt and Schatten work, and didn’t see any explanation of how much they think TSI contributes to our current warming trend. The only TSI references you’ve provided so far have clearly stated that it is not dominant.

Regardless of your motives, the point remains that the causes and effects of whatever warming or cooling which is, or is not, occurring is not well understood.

Even the UN Climate panel admits that.

Where? You’re great at providing quotes and citations, except where I’d really like to see them. The UN panel may say that the science isn’t exact, but I doubt they mean that you should just throw their research out the window because they don’t know what they’re talking about. How foolish would that be? Have you read the new UN summary, or are you just going by people like Monckton’s take on it?

What I find most interesting are those scientists who would say we do not need to fund additional research into solar variability because, they insist, we already know the answer.

I was not aware that this request had been made. Quotes? Names? Regardless, I disagree. All avenues of research should be pursued until an agreeable solution can be found.

Again, with the amount of money required to comply with the demands of the international environmental community we could solve practically every other problem the world has. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to be more sure that what the so-called “environmentalists” are saying has scientific validity before we waste $500 TRILLION?

Once again, provide some kind of source. Who estimated $500 trillion, and what remediation was it based upon?

And while I am on the subject, I found an analysis by Christopher Horner describing the recent “COP-12/MOP-2″ meeting in Nairobi (how’s that for lingo reasic), or in cab driver language, those backing the Kyoto protocol.

Horner points out with evident interest the fact that while the Europeans are posturing over greenhouse gas emissions and pointing the finger at the United States:

Over the most recent five years for which we have data (2000‐2004) Europeʹs GHG emissions have increased twice as fast as those of the U.S. Their CO2 emissions are increasing with an even greater disparity. Most starkly, the average EU country’s carbon dioxide emissions have increased over this period approximately five times as fast as those of the U.S. …
Inarguably, Europe is increasing its CO2 emissions at a rate far faster than the U.S., despite the obscuring effects of a collectivized emission figure and the arbitrary and uniquely favorable 1990 baseline.

As for Mr. Horner’s information, it’s terribly misleading. There is a reason that he is only comparing the data for 2000-2004. Here’s the full data set from 1990-2004 for the EU and the US. After looking at both sets of data, you’ll see that in those 15 years, the US has steadily increased a total of 16%, while the EU has struggled, but has decreased slightly. Their plan is to be 8% below 1990 levels, and they are currently only 0.9% below, so they have a ways to go, but they are at least making some effort.

It’s pretty difficult to take manmade global warming seriously when we already know that the first UN climate change report used a hockey stick graph meant to show warming,but excluded both the medieval warm period and the maunder minimum.

Looking at the graph, I’d like to draw your attention to some interesting disparities. First, the two graphs are at different scales. Second, you’ll notice at the top of the second graph it says “Climatic Changes in Europe“. Most climate scientists do not consider this to have been a global event, as I’ve said before. It is not uncommon for one area of the planet to experience a warming that is not experienced elsewhere.

And now of course we learn that the current UN report has had to trim it’s initial batch of alarmist predictions…

What has been trimmed? Quotes?

Then the coup de grace: those same self righteous Europeans continue to burn carbon at a faster rate than the U.S.

I find it funny that you perpetuate this garbage, and then you go on to say:

Until the lies, the phony forecasts, the weak and politically motivated science behind the flawed insistence on MANMADE global warming is stripped away, the subject will continue to be what it has always been: a leftist concocted political tool.

I won’t say that Horner is lying, but he is definitely presenting the data in a very misleading way. The EU nations have done much more and are trying to do much more to curb their emissions than we have. I’d like to see some quotes or relevant information to back up your other claims before I’m convinced about the global warming conspiracy.

As for the rest of you, I’ll have to reply another time.

Mike, you keep making claims without backing them up. When I made my argument, I spent a long time looking up numbers and reading articles. Then, I argued against your main points and backed each of my dissenting arguments with data or sound reasoning. You, however, are tell me that I’m cherry picking without telling me how. Then, you tell me that none of the “science” I “cling to” is accurate, but you don’t back that up either.

I told you in my response what examples or additional information I wanted. It’s not a situation where you provided information but it wasn’t good enough. You made claims with any evidence to back them up. I’ll give you a short order list of the info I’ve requested and why:

1. You said that I was “cherry-picking” in my responses to your citations, but failed to provide any evidence. I simply read the papers or their summaries and found that the overwhelming majority of them were not opposed to the idea that the planet is warming. If you want to say that I’m cherry-picking, you should back that claim up by showing me how the papers I said were not dissenting actually were.

2. Also, after showing you that most of your citations were not skeptic arguments, I asked for different peer-reviewed papers. Monckton is not even a scientist, and the Singer-Avery book is not a peer-reviewed paper. I find it interesting that you use the word science in quotations when referring to my use of it, as if the IPCC’s research is some kind of pseudo-science, but then you fail to provide any scientific research to back up your skeptical arguments and you worship the work of a journalist.

3. In the same line as #2, I looked at the Hoyt and Schatter work, and I failed to see how it is a skeptic argument. Please provide some quotes or something to help me see it. It’s yet another reference on solar irradiance that even the IPCC reports cite in helping to explain some of the lesser effects on the warming of the planet, but I fail to see how it counts as a skeptical argument.

4. You made the claim that the UN panel admits that “the causes and effects of whatever warming or cooling which is, or is not, occurring is not well understood.” And yet again, there is no quote from the new report summary. If you make a claim, you have to back it up. Otherwise, I must assume that you’ve just made it up. I tried to do your work for you, but I couldn’t find it in there.

5. You said that some scientists say we shouldn’t fund additional research into solar variability anymore. I hadn’t heard this, so I was interested in finding out who said it. Do you have any names or quotes?

6. You claimed that it would take $500 trillion to reduce our emissions. I’m interested in finding out what remediation plan that number is based on and who came up with it. Or did you just throw a really big number out there without any basis for it?

7. I explained that Horner’s data is misleading because the EU has reduce their emissions by almost one percent from 1990, while the US has increased by 16%. He makes it seem as though their emissions are sky-rocketing compared to ours, which is patently false. Then in your reply you make a snide remark about how I’m “clever by half”. Do you have a response or a rebuttal, or are you just reduced to taking jabs at me without actually making any valid points?

8. Next, I explained that Monckton’s Hockey stick graph comparison is flawed due to variations in scale and area. Do you have a rebuttal, or do you agree?

9. You said that the UN trimmed “its initial batch of alarmist predictions”. I wanted to see what predictions it trimmed. I’m starting to see a trend, where you seem to regurgitate a skeptic argument, but provide no actual evidence for the claims. Do you know what specific predictions were trimmed? I know that sea level rise was lowered, but is there anything else?

So, to wrap up, I want:

1. Evidence that I was cherry-picking.

2. Peer-reviewed research that supports skeptical arguments.

3. Same as #2.

4. A quote from the UN panel that the causes of climate change are not understood.

5. Names and/or quotes from scientists who say that we shouldn’t fund research on solar variance.

6. Where did you get the $500 trillion number from?

7. A rebuttal to my claims about Horner’s data.

8. A rebuttal to my observations about the hockey-stick graphs.

9. A list of the predictions that the UN “trimmed”.

You wanted to know what examples I wanted? This is it. I’ve clearly spelled it out for you.

Wordsmith,

Is that really all we’re trying to do? Save a total of 0.2 degrees F? C’mon, now. The concern is that we are in a warming trend that is caused by us and, while small in the short term, will begin to add up very quickly and will only get worse.

I think you misunderstood the point. I wasn’t saying global warming is only going to affect climate temperatures by .2 degrees Fahrenheit; I’m saying that if all the nations, including the ones that were required to do NOTHING themselves (China and India helped to ratify the protocol without being required to reduce carbon emissions themselves), actually bothered to honor the Treaty and meet their goals of reducing emissions, that at the expense of the global economy- which you say you don’t want to harm- they will have influenced the global temperature by only about .2 degrees, for better or worse. Who the frak cares?! Who’s to say that a .2 degree increase or decrease is good or consequently bad? Climate temperatures have gone up and down; land masses have sunk and risen; continents have drifted over time….so what? SO WHAT?! Change is a part of life. Get used to it. Adapt. Climate change has been happening regardless of man’s influence since the world began. Even if I conceded the DEBATEABLE claim that global warming is largely induced/accelerated by man, why should I care? Oh yeah…we’ll experience hurricanes, land masses will be submerged by melted glaciers, yadda, yadda, yadda.

When meteorologists start hitting a .300 batting average, call me. They can’t even predict tomorrow’s weather with any reliable consistency let alone what may or may not happen 100 years from now.

So in the long term, which is how the issue of global warming should be viewed, we are talking significant warming that we could experience. If you don’t agree with the science, let’s talk about that.

I’m not really interested in talking to you at all. I’m just here, because you are.

It doesn’t do anyone any good when you set yourself up a straw man that no one proposed and then easily knock it down.

You wrote: If it’s happening and we’re the cause, shouldn’t we do something?

To which I brought up Kyoto where nations supposedly were trying to do something; then I mentioned in the same breath: but you didn’t bring up Kyoto. I did.

So congratulations on setting up and knocking down your own strawman point. But that’s what happens when you selectively cherry-pick, ignoring the rest of what I wrote so you could pat yourself on the back and feel like you accomplished something here.

I can tell you that I am not for ruining our economy. I am well aware that we depend on the big industry corporations that do a majority of the polluting.

How about building nuclear power plants? It’s worked out for France. Oh, but we might offend the environmental whackos…

I don’t want anyone to go bankrupt. I also don’t think everyone should start walking and riding bikes. I do think that we can begin monitoring emissions and making honest attempts at cutting back. I would start slow. If we can make progress without hurting the economy, let’s push for more reductions.

I’m all for conservation of energy and such, and discovering alternative fuel sources. But I vehemently disagree with the global warming hysteria.

I don’t know about Kyoto either. Right now, I’m for it, for lack of any other proposals.

Well, then that would contradict your statement above, where you said: I can tell you that I am not for ruining our economy.

I can’t think of a single nation that signed on to Kyoto, that was serious about it. Did any of the countries achieve (or even try) to reach their pledged, target goals? Or was it all a “feel-good” meaningless facade to give nations the appearance of doing something high and mighty? So they can appear to be an enlightened society?

You are the one that is against the current proposal on the table (Kyoto), and you want me to provide another one?

Not even our Congressional leaders during the previous Administration were for Kyoto. They unanimously rejected it. Under the Clinton Administration, it was never submitted to the Senate for ratification, but passed off to the current Administration as a political hot potato. Yet of course, as in all things, let’s blame Bush.

Maybe you should provide the alternative. Or is yours to do nothing? If that’s the case, then we are back to discussing whether global warming is happening, so there’d be no point in discussing remedies.

Hey, you’re the global warming alarmist who thinks the apocalyptic end of days is at hand; I’m the cool-as-a-cucumber denier. I don’t have to propose anything except this: It’s been so cool these days out in Los Angeles, that I’m thinking of buying a little electric heater. Any solutions for that?

Hey, Wordsmith. I’m glad you replied. I really think we all are a little closer in our beliefs about this, but because we can’t sit down and chat about it over a beer, it’s harder to really hash it out. One comment you made really made me think that, and I’ll get to it in a minute.

I’m saying that if all the nations, including the ones that were required to do NOTHING themselves (China and India helped to ratify the protocol without being required to reduce carbon emissions themselves), actually bothered to honor the Treaty and meet their goals of reducing emissions, that at the expense of the global economy- which you say you don’t want to harm- they will have influenced the global temperature by only about .2 degrees, for better or worse. Who the frak cares?!

What time frame are you talking about? I’ll give you an example of the difference that can be made, in terms of emissions, first. In reply to someone else, I looked up the emissions of the US versus the EU nations for the period from 1990 to 2004. During that time, the US GHG emissions went up 16%, while the EU’s emissions has gone down by almost 1%. The EU’s goal is to be at 8% less than their 1990 levels by 2012. Even if we stay constant, it’s better than doing nothing, which will result in continued increases in GHGs.

What I’m confused about in your comment is that you’re saying 0.2 degrees F period, as if that’s the total difference we’ll ever see if we try to cut back on emissions. I think that’s disingenuous. If the world continues to increase their GHG emissions, warming will get even worse. If we curb our emissions, we will prevent the warming that would have otherwise occurred.

You and many other skeptics also seem to be overly concerned about what other nations are doing. If we were to take action, we’d have the moral authority to force other countries to do the same through political pressure or even sanctions. So, I say who cares what India or China are doing? We need to do what we can, within reason, and then we can deal with them also. Kyoto would not wreck our economy. There are some US states and cities who have already enacted similar restrictions, and they are doing fine.

Even if I conceded the DEBATEABLE claim that global warming is largely induced/accelerated by man, why should I care? Oh yeah…we’ll experience hurricanes, land masses will be submerged by melted glaciers, yadda, yadda, yadda.

When meteorologists start hitting a .300 batting average, call me. They can’t even predict tomorrow’s weather with any reliable consistency let alone what may or may not happen 100 years from now.

I have two issues with this one. First of all, if you truly conceded that global warming is caused by man, and you also decided that we shouldn’t do anything about it, you would also have to accept that temperatures would continue to rise. I think you may be thinking that they go up 0.2 degrees or something and then they stop. If we are causing it, and we don’t do anything, they just keep on rising, along with sea levels and melting, as you’ve pointed out. Then, we start messing with ecosystems and we could lose large land masses into the sea. If the sea level in a couple hundred years was several feet higher than now, that would be catastrophic to many islands and coasts. Is it that you’re not thinking about the long term, or have you just said that you’d concede the GW argument for argument’s sake, but then really didn’t?

The other problem I have with this is that you’re talking about the reliability of meteorologists. There is a HUGE difference between weather and climate. If you’re basing your distrust of climate scientists on the reliability of your local meteorologist, I think you’re barking up the wrong tree.

So congratulations on setting up and knocking down your own strawman point. But that’s what happens when you selectively cherry-pick, ignoring the rest of what I wrote so you could pat yourself on the back and feel like you accomplished something here.

The straw man I was referring to was the one where you said that we’d ruin our economy by trying to curb emissions, and it would only make 0.2 degrees F worth of difference. That claim is patently false. If that were the case, that would be stupid and no one would be for it. So, by claiming that this is the choice we are left with and pointing it out as stupid, you’ve set up and successfully knocked down a straw man.

I’m all for conservation of energy and such, and discovering alternative fuel sources. But I vehemently disagree with the global warming hysteria.

This is the part I was glad to see. That’s all I’m talking about. I think a lot of you guys see me arguing in favor of taking action, so you assume that I’m some alarmist wacko that wants to backrupt Exxon. All I want is for us to do what we can, and I think we can do more than what we are doing. Let’s do more research on alt. fuels, produce more fuel efficient vehicles, curb emissions from power plants, etc. I’m not talking about drastic actions here. I think you guys are assuming that I am. Anything would be better than nothing, which is what we are doing right now.

After I said that I’m tentatively for Kyoto, you said:

Well, then that would contradict your statement above, where you said: I can tell you that I am not for ruining our economy.

I can’t think of a single nation that signed on to Kyoto, that was serious about it. Did any of the countries achieve (or even try) to reach their pledged, target goals? Or was it all a “feel-good” meaningless facade to give nations the appearance of doing something high and mighty? So they can appear to be an enlightened society?

First of all, I don’t think Kyoto would ruin our economy. It doesn’t even matter, because we aren’t doing anything. If we were at least trying to curb emissions a little, maybe we could talk about what’s doing to our economy, but instead, the skeptics just sit back and complain about what it would do to our economy.

Second, it’s impossible to say whether any countries have reached their targeted goals under Kyoto, because their goals are set for 2012. We’ll see when we get there. I can tell you this much: the US will go down in the history books as not doing anything at all.

Not even our Congressional leaders during the previous Administration were for Kyoto. They unanimously rejected it. Under the Clinton Administration, it was never submitted to the Senate for ratification, but passed off to the current Administration as a political hot potato. Yet of course, as in all things, let’s blame Bush.

Congress didn’t reject Kyoto. The Senate passed a resolution stating that it would not support any treaties unless certain guidelines were met. The treaty was never presented to the Senate for ratification. However, Clinton was at least in talks with them and trying to figure out a solution. Bush just tossed it out the window. He even made campaign pledges that he would curb CO2 emissions, and then pulled out of that too.

Hey, you’re the global warming alarmist who thinks the apocalyptic end of days is at hand; I’m the cool-as-a-cucumber denier. I don’t have to propose anything except this: It’s been so cool these days out in Los Angeles, that I’m thinking of buying a little electric heater. Any solutions for that?

I’ve not said that the world is coming to an end. All I’m saying is that we are causing the warming and the warming will continue to happen until emissions are reduced. It’s about thinking about our grandkids and their grandkids, and taking care of the planet that God put us on.

You keep making arguments against the proposed mitigation methods, when it seems that you don’t even believe there is a problem. That is a waste of time. Let’s just debate the problem and the science behind it, if that’s what you don’t agree with. I’ll provide for you my logical argument that we are the cause of the warming that we are seeing, and you then tell me what you disagree with:

I think that there are greenhouse gases in our atmosphere. I believe that they are at much higher concentrations than ever before. I also believe that human activities, especially in recent years, emit those same greenhouse gases. Now, I draw the logical conclusion that A is true and B is true, therefore C is true(C, being that humans are the source of the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere.)

Now on to the effect of such gases. I believe that the greenhouse gases in our atmosphere produce a warming effect on the planet. As the concentration of the gases increases, more heat from the sun is trapped in.

One more logical step. If humans are the source of the high concentrations of greenhouse gases in our atmosphere, and those gases have a warming effect on the planet, I then draw the conclusion that humans have caused this new warming trend.

Which of these statements do you disagree with? You pick one or more, and then we’ll debate that specific statement. Be sure to be ready to back up your claims with scientific research, though, and I’ll do the same.

Reasic admits he is no expert. I haven’t heard what other credentials he may claim in this field.

So I can only conclude that his opinions are not peer reviewed and he has no professional experience in environmental issues.

He can correct me if I am wrong.

Nope, you’re right. I’m not expert. However, the overwhelming majority of climate scientists who had a part in the making of their most recent Assessment Report are. Do you trust their opinions? No, you’ve said you don’t. So apparently credentials are not what’s stopping you.

Listen, I spelled out for you what examples or evidence I wanted and yet again you’ve failed to provide me with anything to back up your claims. I’ve backed up mine, and you’ve done nothing to substantiate yours. Are you going to do so, or not?

Also, I just noticed another thing:

Plus, will you now disregard it when we bring in more scientists and more papers who disagree with your global warming crowd? 7-8 this time, another 12 dozen next time….”not enough I say, not enough”. I have a feeling we could bring in a thousand of em and you will ignore it also.

Curt, I didn’t simply “ignore” the citations that Mike provided. I also didn’t just “disregard” them without any basis for it. I read over them and provided detailed reasons for why I felt that they did not qualify as skeptical arguments. Most of them were about solar irradiance, but the ones that were didn’t state that TSI was the dominant cause for the warming we are seeing. In fact, some specifically stated that it was no dominant.

So, I’d love to see more references. But don’t go thinking that I’m just going to dismiss them without looking at them. Also, don’t think that I’ll just accept that they are what you say they are without actually looking them over.